Toluwani: I would like to start by introducing myself. My name is Toluwani Makinde. I was born in Lagos, Nigeria. Yeah, but I moved here to study graphic design because I love designing. It's what I've always loved to do right from my childhood. But at a point, I wanted to do Law. 

 

Graham: Law?

 

Toluwani: Yes...well, my mom, she's a visual director. She loves to work with her hands. She paints and draws. She also works with clay. So, I usually love to see her do those things, especially when she does tie and dye. And then my dad, he's passed away now. He also used to do design. He specialized in designing billboards.

 

Graham: All right.

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Toluwani: So, I grew up in a family of visual creatives, but I did not see that as what I wanted to do until I think, my third year in the university. It’s really funny how my graphic design career started because there was a time my mom was supposed to send me my monthly upkeep, but the banks were having issues, and I needed money. So, a friend of mine who does graphic design was like, why don’t you come to learn graphic design? If you are keen to learn within a few weeks, you should be able to do your first job. I was like, okay! So, I started, and then he signed me up as a freelancer, and then I designed a Logo for a particular brand, and they loved it and paid me.

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I was in awe. I made my first money with graphic design. So, after I graduated, I still did not go to work as a graphic designer. I was working as a freelancer. Soon after, I got a job in a bank. Later on, my goal was re-evaluated, so I decided to dive fully into creativity. As a result, I moved to the United Kingdom to pursue a degree in graphic design.

 

One of my modules for this term it's called Transdisciplinary Studio. It involves learning about other design crafts and using them to strengthen our crafts. So, I chose sculpture because I know sculpting is not easy aside from the ideas, the time, and the finance, and I know it's not easy at all. People see the output. But most times, if we don't look intently, we may not know how much sacrifice went into the design. For example, when I visited your exhibition, I found one of your designs, of two standing comedians.

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Graham: Yeah, Laurel and Hardy.

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Toluwani: Yes, and I think you said it took about seven years to design, right?

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Graham: Yeah, well, it took us 25 years to get the money to do it, and yeah, right. It's the world we are in now. So, it took us 25 years to get the money. So, I have to raise the money to pay myself to make a sculpture. So, it's a bit... 

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Toluwani: Yeah, I think I need to clap (Toluwani claps). So that's what I keep saying. So, I loved the designs. I saw them and felt I needed to write about them for my blog. I was really happy that day when you said you wanted to meet me. I am grateful.

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Graham: No, no, no problem. I am pleased. If I can help, I can help. But a lot of my work. Its narrative and graphic design are narratives. It is telling a story, and you know, you are kind of marketing a story. But a lot of my work is narrative; all my structures tell a story. So, I've been accused of being a graphic designer, and I never had an icon graphic design. I mean, I can make sculptures, and I can make people laugh by making sculptures. But I can't…I can't market something I haven't got the edge to do that. But I like telling stories.

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Toluwani: Thank you very much for that. Thank you. Yeah, that's true. So, I've got just ten questions that I wanted to ask. Have a copy. (Hand him a sheet of question paper)

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Graham: How would I describe myself? Good looking. (We both laugh) You know, very old fart. But, um. Part of. Um. Right. My work swings from the romantic to the ridiculous. It's part of my character. Yeah. My charity hinges on that. Yeah. So, a lot of my work is about looking at life in a particular way. And I use humour as a tool to bring people in. So, it's excessive, and I find that I'm accessible as well. People see me as an accessible person. So, I see myself as kind of being completely honest. Some artists are less honest, but I am true to my character. That’s how I see myself.

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Toluwani: Thank you very much for that. Thank you. Okay. So how would you define a creative studio? 

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Graham: Um… I don't know. I mean, that's a hard one. All right. And yeah, I have worked in garages, I have worked in sheds, I have worked in big studios and a huge studio previously to me moving. So, I have made a huge piece. I like space, and that is the edge of being a sculptor. You can’t make a sculpture really in a bedroom or in a house, it has to be in a proper workshop mostly. So, I see my work as part of my family, with my traits of them. I created my family. Yeah, with my wife of course. But yeah, I'm part of a bigger family, and all these things you see around me are about my family as well. Yeah. So as long as I've got this with me, I'm comfortable anywhere. But I've never had music on when I am in the studio, and I tend to kind of whistle under my breath. This is kind of a trait that has stuck with me from school. When I was in school, I was told off because even when I was concentrating, I was whistling and I couldn’t stop it. Well, yes, I always have a studio where I live. So, it's like living above the shop. Because the studio is there when I get bored, I go into the studio to feel relaxed, do something, or just tidy up. It makes me feel better. So, it's a place of refuge as well as a creative place to write my work.

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Toluwani: Thank you for saying it is a place of refuge and creative space. I think I like that. Thank you. All right. So, the next question is, what relationship would you say the graphic design has with sculpting? 

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Graham: My work is visual and accessible. Okay. It's figurative. And that makes it even more accessible. So, I have been accused of making caricatures, but they're not caricatures, I would say they are sculptures about real life. There is a surreal element to it. I use imagery to draw people in. So, say the little things in life you have to picture to smile. My work is about humanity as well. It's about telling a story about the society I live in and the community I am part of. And, so I have all of the influences as well. Whereas with graphic design and that's global. Imagery is global.

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I am definitely based in northern England even though I am doing cowboys. They are cowboys from my childhood. In the 1950s, when we run around the streets pretending to be the Wild West as a child. But now this is a reflection of my childhood, and the thing is people will see that image, and it will make them smile, and they just remember their childhood. So yeah, it is about graphics, but also, it's about using the image in a clear and precise way to get your point across, and surely that is the fundamental gospel. In your graphics, your message has to be clear.

 

Toluwani: Thank you very much, for saying that. Thank you. I think I feel very confident now that you said that. Thank you. All right. So, what skills and qualities would you as an exceptional sculptor advise me as a graphic designer to have or cultivate?

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Graham: Well, the basic skill is about observation. So, I was ill about two and a half years ago, seriously ill. I couldn’t make sculptures, but I still wanted to be creative. I couldn't lift anything, so I decided my observational skills needed honing. And I’ve done sketches for sculpture, but I did do a drawing for the sake of drawing. So, I started drawing from life again through portraits of my grandkids, my wife, and the children. But then I took it a step further, I used photographs and dotted the photographs and then used my observational skills as a sculptor to bring all that out. I think it's about observation. It's about keeping their skills honed. So, you see what other people don't see or can't be bothered to see. And that’s why I teach life drawing. It not teaching people to be good at drawing figures, teaching people actually to look deeper. And once you’ve learned how to do that, I think that helps. I think you need to keep honing it because, after a while, you get complacent and you just think you know everything. And… you know… you know. So, you don't know anything, really. Do you know? You're just touching the tip of the iceberg. But I think if you can keep their skills honed and keep on looking and keep on learning. I think that's the route to success. In every visual life, it has got to be.

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Toluwani: Thank you so much for saying that. And I'm sorry that you were Ill. I'm glad that you're better now. Well, you know, you don’t look Ill at all now; you look really strong.

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Graham: (Laughs) I'm not strong enough. But I am not badly looking either. (We both laugh)

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Toluwani: Could you tell me about your creative process?

 

Graham: Right. Yeah, that's pretty. Right. Intentionally I just see a sentence that inspires the sculpture. Or I see an image that inspires a piece of sculpture or a comment in a poem, you know, some very friendly jokes in certain countries across terms of imagery. So, what I do is use things. Even if it is just a sentence, or even if it's just an image, a really quick image and then I get to make a sculpture. There's nothing better than a drawing of what I'm going to make, you know? I Go straight to the sculpture. I've got an image in my mind, and then as I am building it up it changes. So, what's in your mind's eye never ends up as a sculpture or a drawing. And if it does, you are a genius. Because I think just the process of making art, painting, graphics, drawing, sculpture, music if you don't adapt while you're doing it if things don’t change, it’s going to be absolutely unsuccessful. So, I make decisions, I know basically what I want to do, either it is a cowboy or stuff like that, and then I change it on the route. That's all. All my sculptures are made in clay from that clay, and then we do fine brass or bronze. I've got a really good relationship with a couple of foundries. Some I've worked with for 50 years, and a couple of them, another one I've worked with for 30 years. So basically, that's the process of making sculptures. If I'm being commissioned, that's a different kettle of fish. Because what I have to do is make a small model which is a Maquette, its called a Maquette. A sketch model of the piece I propose. 

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(Graham shows me an example of a Maquette for a few minutes)

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Graham: I tell them this is how it’s going to look, and then they say if they are okay or want changes, and then I scale a big one. So, it's a different process. But other people patrol the shops there. Yeah. And that's the problem is that since 1986 I've been commissioned sculpture off and on, and for the last 20 years, I've probably been doing more commissioned sculpture, so probably sculpture from towns and cities in the UK. However, you are dancing to someone else’s tune. Granted, I have done some of my old-time heroes, and yeah, someone has paid me to make monuments of the people I love, but I want to dance to my tune. I don’t want to continue doing that. So, now I am in my 70s, I want to do my own work, what I originally set out to do. Well, now my families grown up, everyone is healthy and happy for the time being. So now, I'm concentrating on my own work. And it is great. It’s a great sense of freedom, and I am enjoying it.

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Toluwani: I'm glad that you are. Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you so much. Thanks. The next question. Can you explain how you overcame some obstacles in your creative line? 

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Graham: Recently, it’s about, I did an Anti-Racist sculpture for West Bromwich, a town in the Midlands. It was about three black footballers who were prominent in the late 1970s. Laurie Cunningham, Brendon Batson, and Cyrille Regis. And then, in the end, we were trying to get the money for it. Well, you know, when we got the money out, we proceeded to one stage and the next. I subsidized it with my own money, 24 grand to start a project, £24,000. And then, in the end, it stopped. The council walked away; they would not give any more money. The fundraiser walked away. And I was left with these lumps of bronze on the floor. The sculpture was not together. So, I wrote to the Professional Football Association, and I asked them what I would do, and what I could do. This is in Manchester. In return, they said, this sculpture needs to be finished. So, this is what I said earlier. 

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Occasionally, I come up with an idea for a sculpture, or somebody else does, and then they've got to get the money. And I help get them the money. Not necessarily to pay me but to pay the foundry. Fact I lost money on the sculpture in West Brom. But it got done. And it took us seven years. The Eric Morecambe sculpture took us seven years to raise money, and when we made, the first year alone when it was unveiled, Morecambe made an extra one million £1,000,000 in car parking fees alone through extra visiting numbers of people coming to look at the sculptures.

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Toluwani: Wow!

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Graham: And the sculpture cost 70 grand as well. So, yeah, but personally, there's a turning point when I'm sculpting and drawing. Right, so it’s all that matters. I draw when I am making sculptures. So, it starts, I go round and round and round. To the tiny bits, tiny bits, and tiny bits. And there's a point where you're about to start tightening it, and you think, is this worth it? Drawing is significant because, in a couple of days, you can just sling the drawing. But if it gets to sculpting, you spend a couple of weeks making them or a month making a sculpture. But it only takes 10 minutes before you can turn it to know that you are going in the right direction. Very seldom have abandoned sculptures. I have gotten to flatten a sculpture or destroy it because I keep going back and trying to work on it. So, if I can, I destroy it if it doesn’t flip over from the negative to the positive. But with drawing, It's simple because two days and I know it's going to work or not going to work because it's almost immediate. But making sculptures is different. So basically, I destroy the thing I can’t flip over because I'm the kind of person that would be working on it continually to get it right. So, I've got to abandon it. I can’t abandon it because I need to work on it. It needs to be destroyed if it needs to be destroyed.

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Toluwani: Thank you very much for sharing that personal experience. I think I have benefitted maximally from it, especially with the challenge you experienced with the council, but how it eventually turned out to be a blessing in the end, with them even making extra money. Thank you. 

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All right. How much of an influence would you say your environment had on you towards your chosen career? 

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Graham: I live in Barnsley. I have lived here for 50 years. I was born and bred here. I went to the Royal College of London and lived elsewhere for seven years. But I am back in my home town; I live less than 10 minute walk from here. I also have a studio 10-minute walk from here. I have various studios and various houses with studios. And this town has influenced me incredibly. That is shown all over the world, and I have shown it all over the world. So, I am taking a little bit of me out there, and that bit of me was born and bred in this town. And I am influenced by the humour, the people, and the town. I am influenced by TV. I love the kind of variety. The variety shows, the magicians, and in a way, I've seen myself almost as a kind of comedian. But these jokes, these sculptures, take months to tell. You know, they do take a while to tell, but occasionally the punchline doesn't work. People don't laugh. But, well, they laugh at me, instead. Well, I think I am okay with that.

 

Toluwani: Well, I think one of the funny sculptures that I saw at the exhibition was the Uphill. I mean, it does remind me of my aunt pushing my nephew because they live in Luton, and Luton is kind of uphill, and I just remember her pushing my nephew uphill. I remembered the struggle, and I got the point. 

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Graham: Well, that's a graphic image. Yeah, it's very graphic images. Barnsley is full of hills, so I see this woman in that same image and then pushing the child uphill with a lot of shuffling, out of breath. It’s a bit like my daughter. Well, I mean moments when they say I've seen it. I know that image. It's my niece. But nobody is made of sculptures. It's life-sized. So, I enjoyed doing that, and I enjoyed making the promenade. It's just technically in my head that I have to work out how to make a promenade and everything. But for it to work better, the hill would have to be probably up here. I looked at that and felt I could never exhibit those. Well, it works on ground level. 

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Toluwani: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Aside from even tailoring the sculpture to the mothers pushing their babies uphill, I was also able to tailor it to myself because when I moved to Huddersfield, where I live is uphill and I remember going to shop at Aldi, after a full bag of shopping, I then struggle to climb the hills on my way back. One certain I ran out of breath while going back. Fortunately, one lady just said, do you need help? I was like yes, I need help, please help me. So, it just reminds me of the humour that comes with struggling when you eventually get to your destination, you laugh at yourself, but there is just this relief that comes after.

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Graham: You were in the same places in the distance. You just think, oh! That’s not far, but it’s a huge building, it's 5 miles away, but you think it’s just one.

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Toluwani: Um, how do you deal with negative feedback or criticism? 

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Graham: …I am not saying it doesn’t hurt, but you get used to it. If you’ve got faith in yourself... I mean, I have been called Vladimir Jurowski and many times now, I have been called a masturbatory artist. And yeah, it did upset me because it was in a national newspaper. At an exhibition at a certain time, it was a summer show at Kensington Gardens, in London and em... someone called me a masturbatory artist or Vladimir… the thing is, what I thought about it was that maybe it’s a compliment because aren't all artists self-indulgent? Think about it.

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Yeah, well, it's about you. It's about himself. Because if you don't work that way, you can't be truthful. It's got to be about you; it can't be about trying to please anybody else kind of. I mean, if it's a commission, I say you, you've done graphic commission. You've got to try to get all the marketing projects across. However, if it's your work, if it's showing drawings, and if it's yeah, yeah, I'm sculpture, you got to work to your initiative. You got to work to your own, you know, dance to your tune. Like I said before, you’ve got to have faith in yourself. Criticism doesn’t matter if you’ve got faith.

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I don't gamble. I don't gamble with money. I gamble with my sculpture. I gamble with my art because of everything I have made, I don’t know if I'm going to show it, sell it, or what, but I am still going to make it anyway. So, that’s the gamble. So, anybody says, I don't take a risk, I don't know, because I take risks all the time. Shouldn't I be trying to take risks? That's what it's all about. It's about learning. It’s about moving on. If you don't take risks, you will not move on. You took a risk by joining the University of Huddersfield, right? You don't move on if you don’t take risks and you can’t stand still.  And you certainly can’t stand still as a creative unless you are going to get lost. I need you to keep on moving.

 

Toluwani: Thank you very much. Thank you. That just reminds me of a time I designed a logo, and then I was showing it to some people, and the feedback was good. I remember someone even saying it looks like poo. Like I worked tirelessly for weeks to do this, and this is what you said. But when I eventually submitted the design to my supervisor, it was so good. It got to me, and the criticism got to me, but I didn't let that stop me from submitting it. Eventually, I got a good grade for it.

 

Graham: Well, you had faith in your ability. It doesn't matter. These critics, are they creative? I don’t know if a lot of critics are. I think they’ve got a good eye, don’t get me wrong, but I think many of them are not bright. I don’t know any artist, true artist, that has been deterred by any criticism. It shouldn’t be. I have been criticized about various things and the commission as well. But on one side, it’s not the best thing I have done, but it's certainly the best for the majority.

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Toluwani: The next question is would you say you have any favourite sculpture?

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Graham: Oh, right, right. There is one piece called the scales of justice.

 

Toluwani: Yeah, with the two boys, I really love that one. 

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Graham: It’s a boy and a girl.

 

Toluwani: I love that. 

 

Graham: I mean, there was a Teesside law court in Middlesbrough we had growing up. So, I did a classical mother, and I kind of made it look like a cross. I didn't realize the symbolism when I was doing it. One is a girl, and one is a boy. The woman is classical. It’s a classical portrait of my wife. She was about 26, and the two kids were the cartoon kids Dandy and Beano. It’s got a lot of elements and symbolism. So, there's a flow... So, I was allowed to do it; I was commissioned to do them but asked to come out with that image. I was employed as a sculptor to do it, and they had faith in me to come up with those, and I said, that's what I want to do. And it's a mining memorial, and most don't think about it. It's not the mining. It's the woman. You know, it’s the wife, mother, and daughter of the miner who was working... so the dominant figure is female in a masculine industry. But I live in a community that's a mining community, an ex-mining community, a former mining community. I was born in various communities in some of the valleys in the coal mines, so my mining heritage goes back a hundred and 90 years. So, I lived within that community. I know the strength of that community. So that's why the woman became the dominant figure. She represents the family, and yeah, I suppose that's my favourite sculpture.

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Toluwani: Thank you very much for that. Thank you. I really loved that sculpture, especially when the text beside it at the exhibition said, “the kids are definitely not mine.” (We both laugh) So the last thing is I would just like to show you some of my designs and then get feedback from you.

(I show graham some of my designs for the next couple of minutes)

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Design Feedback

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Graham: The save on design is a really simple and excellent idea. I like the shadow and subtle lettering.

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Graham: The moving logo is very clever; it’s about observation and moving things. Drawing people in.

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Toluwani: Thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful. Thank you.

 

Graham: It's all right. Don't worry. I enjoyed it. 

 

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Conclusion

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A significant highlight of this interview was Graham's gift to me of his book, "The People's Sculptor." Graham sent the book to me by post inscribed with "All the Best." For me, this meant a lot.

 

Ultimately, this interview was well worth the effort and helped me focus more on my creative direction. Moreover, I better understood the similarities between graphic design and sculpture. In addition, it revealed that every designer had experienced setbacks at some point; however, the ultimate goal is never to give up.

 

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Special thanks to:

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​Graham Ibbeson

Alison Cooper (Exhibition officer)

The whole Cooper gallery team